When will tech workers start creating Unions?
I brought this up a couple years ago and everyone thought it was dumb because tech workers were in a "privileged position". Not sure thats really the case anymore with all these layoffs and AI looming over our shoulders.
So how many more layoffs before we start making Unions?
Unions won't prevent AI or layoffs. This is like asking Unions to prevent using a car over the horse and buggy, because there will be job loss. Even if you could do this, why would you want to?
Unions also generally don't work for tech workers because as an individual, you can can make more than the collective. Why would I want to wait for everyone at my position to get a raise before I get one?
This works for positions that don't require that much skill and almost anyone can do.
This ^
The union I am in is actively hostile to improvements because so much of what they do is stuck in the mid 2000's. I was told by my shop steward that they will block automation at every chance they get because it will make the current staff obsolete and they refuse to learn new skills.
Anyone who says unions don't work is saying that collective power is worthless. Despite the fact we are at the whims of the collective power of the elite. It is an absurd statement that doesn't make any sense.
I agree. People in the medical fields, law, and some engineering disciplines have unions. Not because they think it works or doesn’t work but because it creates some kind of influence (can’t explain). We don’t have that.
Doctors are not allowed to unionize in the US. Nurses are a different story.
Gonna recommend folks read https://aworkinglibrary.com/reading/you-deserve-a-tech-union
Very much believe that unions, and power to the workers, are very important!
Tech workers will start creating unions once they get sick and tired of the current system. That's the one we all live in today where
1) Young developers are pitted against older developers in an effort to drive down the salaries of everyone in the industry.
2) You can be fired at any time for any reason.
3) The whims of management (i.e., workplace politics) are the primary force behind whether or not you are promoted, whether or not you are disciplined, your work assignments, and your career progression.
4) Your working conditions (see "remote work) can be changed at a moment's notice in an effort to make you quit your job, accept a lower salary, or as a backdoor justification to otherwise discriminate against you.
5) Layoffs can happen at any time for any reason (or a reason that's completely made up by your CEO -- see "AI" for the current made up reason of the year), and you have no recourse. You have no right to transfer to another position in your company, return to your job after the economic conditions improve, and often have to sign NDAs or agree to ridiculous conditions to collect your severance (if one is even offered)
6) Threats to outsource your job to a foreign company/"AI" are constantly in the air in an effort to make you feel like you deserve less, work more hours, and constantly audition for your job day in and day out.
You're not exempt from any of this if you're a highly-paid IC who is reading this, by the way. In fact, you should know that they really resent having to pay you your big salary (that's their money), which is why you're always going to have a target on your back. You don't think the managers who currently make less than you get paid aren't resentfully eyeing your line on their spreadsheet?
The way to stop all of this is to unionize. Don't you think it's about time?
No, as someone who is in a union at the moment none of those things change. I have seen all these things happen and more with the union's blessing (and sometimes it was their idea). The only thing that changes is a tap is installed between the corp and the union to funnel money out of our paychecks.
As long as the union bosses get their due they don't care what happens to the rank and file.
Which union are you talking about?
Hopefully never; if tech/CS was heavily unionized work I never would have joined the field.
There are a ton of unionized industries, if you like unions so much you should join them. If all the heavily unionized industries look terrible consider if there's a reason for that
Amen to this! I have been hamstrung by the union and we are unable to improve our environment because some jobs only exist due to how inefficient the processes and procedures are.
We literally have people that use their phones to take pictures on monitors, email themselves the photos, then print them out. Why? Because the new tools and systems require training and that's not in their contract. It's crazy-making.
Probably never. See parent.
If all the completely un-unionized industries look terrible consider if there are reasons for that, too. Again, see parent.
The US has seen a great deal of anti-communist and anti-socialist and anti-union propaganda over the last century. The cries of antisemitism recently would indicate that Jews are next. We're following the Niemöller script!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came
Did you link a poem to make your point?
Now seems like as good a time as any to remind everyone the national socialists were, in fact, ardent socialists, and their oppressive nature came from the belief socialism could only work in racially pure societies.
I used to work at the Free Software Foundation which is unionized.
Glitch (prior to being bought by Fastly) was also unionized, but the unionization stopped after Fastly.
Being in a Union does not keep you from being individually fired.
Did they discriminate against you? Did they retaliate against you?
Do you think the union can get me a great salary working from home 5 days a week like I have now?
This is a key point people forget. Unions did not invent the 5-day workweek or healthcare, they stole the idea from private non-union jobs. If you think unions are going to provide some unparalleled advancement in ease of living you're going to be disappointed
Citation needed
Ford came up with our current work week and doubled the pay to improve the working conditions in his factories to attract and keep better workers.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/may-1/ford-facto...
I mean I'm not sure if linking is necessary but Henry Ford is widely credited for inventing the 5-day work week (which he reduced from 6 days without reducing pay).
Health insurance attached to your job is more complex, as the first major instances were in Germany in the 1800's, however generally it was a result of wage controls during WWII. Private companies weren't able to compete on wages, so they started adding benefits.
Unions do not progress employee benefits, they're hostile political organizations inside companies, and once you understand that everything else makes sense. If unions attracted top talent than companies who wanted top talent would enact them; and if they improved wages then the best wages would be union jobs. In private industry, this is essentially never the case.
Who cares who "invented" it. The idea is easy. Getting the capitalists to actually do it was the hard part that unions accomplished.
My dude you need to read some history.
Some things that Unions have gotten us. - 40-Hour Work Week & Overtime Pay - Child Labor Laws - Workplace Safety Standards - Employer-Provided Benefits - Minimum Wage - Civil Rights & Anti-Discrimination - Job Security & “Just Cause” Termination - etc, etc etc
Ford is responsible for the work week.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/may-1/ford-facto...
They can establish better base conditions so that the top performers that individually bargain would obtain better conditions - ie 4 work days rather than 5 -. It's a silly example, it might not be 4 work days, but given that we have the actual 40hrs week thanks to striking and unions the gist remains. You are actually benefitting of the advances made by unions even if you're not part of one - in addition to your performance
Strong unions would be a tool to help you to continue working from home when management gets the RTO brainworms.
The union I am in actively forced people BACK into the office.
From the comments I wonder if unions mean the same in the US and in Europe.
We have unions everywhere and they bargain for everyone. You do not need to be unionized to have advantages - they are the same for everyone.
Unions can be annoying but ultimately the good outweights the bag: we have days off, sick days, firing is difficult etc.
In the US most unions operate closer to the mafia. You tow the line or the "family" makes sure you do.
Honestly, what is the value proposition of a Union to Tech workers? Tech workers tend to well paid and given somewhat wider latitude and freedom than a lot of other professions. In most cases, there isn't really a reason we need to look to a Union for anything.
When it's too late.
The problem isn't just a lack of solidarity, but a codependency on corporations and a lack of worker-owned co-ops as a more sustainable alternative.
Unions are cool. If someone writes unions are bad he is a FAANG bot. FAANG fears unions.
Personally, I hope never. I am in one right now and there is no such thing as "brotherhood" but a grift to drain the corp like a stuck pig to the point of death. It's extremely annoying not being able to fix the problems you know exist because it's not in our contract. Or the DEEP fear of automation because my coworkers refuse to learn new skills and are timeservers and do nothing because they are protected.
If you can avoid it, stay as far away as you can. The gains do not outweigh the cost.
Rant over.
Until the highest paid ICs take to heart that they are still “labor” and not part of the ownership class, regardless of how much lottery ticket, second- and third-class, unpreferred stock they own, unionization will never take off. They will have to understand that really, they’re no different than the interns or the janitors employed at their respective companies. I believe it will become necessary sooner or later because even the oh-so-learned technorati have their breaking point.
I hope that AI, in whatever form, hastens this. People are probably in for a rude awakening.
never
if you can't unionize FAANG, there is no point, its like the UAW but they never got into GM or Ford
you will never unionize FAANG:
the highest paid ICs will see no point, a union is just leveling them down and forcing them to join ranks with people they don't really care that much about
the lowest tiered employees are fungible and can be terminated before they can organize
HN will want to reflexively downvote this, but think it through...how do you unionize the entire engineering dept at a place like Apple? its not possible
For the same reason, the entertainment industry will never unionize.
FAANG employees are not immune to layoffs or offshoring. They have as much to gain from a tech workers union as anyone else.
How can a union prevent offshoring?
They can't
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This sounds like peasant thinking.
Are you waiting for the king to say when its ok to unionize?
What about the people that want to only have one boss and not be sucked into a collective blob that only cares about money?
I am in a union and I have less rights that I did before because I can't work with my boss to figure out the best way to work. I am BOUND by contact and there are 400+ other people that I would have to convince to even change my schedule.
Unions restrict the cooperation AND YOU. Your voice becomes one in a sea and is lost in the noise.